#TrendingJewish 19: Old School Reporting

Bryan Schwartzman

Bryan Schwartzmanan.

Rachael Burgess

Did you have to think about that?

Bryan Schwartzman

I did. Who am I really? It's a question we all should ask, the unexamined life is not worth living.

Rachael Burgess

I don't even know how to follow up with that, that was pretty deep Bryan. You just managed to sound like ... Go from confusion and startled state of mind, to philosophical.

Bryan Schwartzman

Yeah, I generally don't have an in between. So, speaking of the philosophical, help us get more downloads! Spread the word!

Rachael Burgess

Yeah! You know, we've gotten well over 10,000 downloads for our podcast and if you like us and you want to hear future episodes, make sure you subscribe to iTunes, Google Play, Overcast, Castro, wherever you can get podcasts, we're there. And you can also check us out online, listen to our podcast on our website at TrendingJewish.Fireside.FM.

Bryan Schwartzman

And we're part of an amazing organization that's reconstructing Judaism for our time, training rabbis, uplifting communities, so if you like that work that we're doing and want to support it and want to support an organization that's really got its eyes on the Jewish future, make a gift at ReconstructingJudaism.org/support.

Rachael Burgess

So then, you're thinking about the Jewish future, one thing that we talk about ... I think we think about, is what especially nowadays, we're thinking about the media and we're thinking about our newspapers and Jewish news! So, I think our next guest brings a very interesting perspective about what the news today is like and what that is like in that world and trying to navigate Jewish values and working as part of the media.

Bryan Schwartzman

Yes! Clearly a rising star, somebody was hired by the New York Times at 24, I don't know, and really has ... Is a journalist of the future is already there.

Rachael Burgess

And with that, talking to the next generation of journalists, here's our conversation with Zoe Greenberg.

Bryan Schwartzman

Zoe Greenberg grew up in the Mount Airy section of Philadelphia as the daughter of Reconstructionist rabbi Julie Greenberg, she graduated from Yale in 2013 and began working at the New York Times in 2016. She's a researcher for Pulitzer prize winning columnist, Nick Kristof as well as Charles Blow in the opinion section, and also reports her own stories and she lives in Brooklyn. So, welcome Zoe Greenberg.

Thank you for joining us, this is a cool ... I don't know what the word is but.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, happy to be here.

Bryan Schwartzman

Zoe and I, we're reuniting after ... Gotta be more than 10 years, because I interviewed you when you were in high school, you won a competition for a documentary film and now, here you are.

Rachael Burgess

I'm really curious what it's like to work at the New York Times, because it feels like in the journalism world, that's like being signed to the Yankees. I don't like referring to the Yankees, but I feel like that's what it's equivalent to. So, what's that experience been like for you?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I mean, it's very exciting and it's really cool to be around the best journalists, basically in the country and kind of getting to learn from them and seeing what they do and how they do it. You know, also just the platform of the Times, being able to write for it is really incredible because people actually read it and talk about it. You know, your stories can actually make an impact.

Bryan Schwartzman

So what do you do on a day to day basis? We know you write and report your own stories and you also work with some of the best columnists there, so can you break that down for us?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, basically, I'm a researcher for Nicholas Kristof and Charles Blow in the opinion section, and that means that I fact check their columns and I do research for them. Like on my first day, Nick asked me to research how many people had died from slipping in a bathtub versus terrorism. In 2016, I think, and that was my first assignment and it was ... You know, I had to track down who quantifies how many people die in a bathtub and is it different if you slip or if you drown, and you know, which one he wanted to count.

Cause, the purpose of the column was to say that more people die from slipping in a bathtub than from terrorism in the US. Which is true! And I, you know, found the facts to prove it.

Rachael Burgess

Wow, it sounds like from all of that research you are the person to bring to trivia. Do you think Jeopardy's next for you?

Zoe Greenberg

There have been some attempts to do some trivia in the opinion section, they have a Facebook Live trivia contest. But I don't know if I'd actually be that good because it's all extremely obscure, and often not really on pop culture. It's not widely available or widely interesting knowledge, I'd say.

Bryan Schwartzman

The bathtub one might be good, you could throw that into a conversation, like a little known fact.

Rachael Burgess

That's a good dinner table conversation, when you go to a cocktail party, not quite sure what to say. "Well, let me tell you about how many people have slipped and died in a bathtub."

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, so I do that, and I also report and write my own stories. So that's kind of more in my free time, I will write stories for other sections of the paper and report them out. And then also, for Nick, I produce his ... He has a twice weekly newsletter and he used to have a blog, so I would commission pieces and I'd edit pieces for that blog.

Bryan Schwartzman

And you're not yet traveling with him to some of the ...?

Zoe Greenberg

No, I'm not.

Bryan Schwartzman

Difficult areas that he travels to.

Zoe Greenberg

No. I did have a hand in combing through the applications he runs on "Win-a-Trip" contest for college students. So one college student wins [the opportunity] to go on a reporting trip with him. So I get to see all the applications to that, but I don't get to go myself.

Rachael Burgess

You don't just slip your own in there?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, no, unfortunately.

Bryan Schwartzman

So I don't know you that well, but the little we've interacted, you seem like you've got the resume and kind of the composition to do anything you wanted. So why, in 2018 or 2016, whenever you started, choose to jump full on into print journalism at a time when the print journalism model is threatened or challenged, or however you want to say. When there's a low level of trust in it, I could go on and on.

Why now at a time when a lot of people are fleeing from the field, actually?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, that's a good question. One I ask myself, too! No, but...

Bryan Schwartzman

I'm not trying to talk you out of it!

Zoe Greenberg

I mean, to me, reporting is just one of the most fun jobs in the world. You basically get to talk to people all day, you ask them questions that you're just genuinely curious about, you can ask them really personal questions and it's not rude. You can ask them really basic questions and they still think you're legitimate. That's really fun, and then you can go and write up the story based on your ideas, or on how it all fits together and that's such an exciting thing. And then you can actually see your writing have an impact on real people's lives and real policy, you know, so that's all what drew me into reporting and to writing.

And I entered the industry, you know, when it was already kind of falling apart, like I've never been part of it when that wasn't happening, so that was just kind of part of my experience of it. I had an internship at The Oregonian, which is Oregon's daily newspaper, and then something like my third week at this internship they fired half the staff. I mean, its been like that at every place I've been, basically. It's just print journalism is obviously undergoing huge change, and that's just kind of part of it. But it doesn't make me think that reporting is not useful, and it also doesn't make me think that there's not a career in it, because I think even as those old models kind of die or change, there's still going to be a need for news and for reporting and there'll still be new structures.

That said, that is one of the exciting things of being at the Times is that it's obviously doing pretty well and it's not about to die out.

Bryan Schwartzman

Right, I mean, I've heard it argued at a time when the influence of the regional newspapers as institutions have been weakened that the Times' and the Wall Street Journal's, their importance is even more so than a generation ago. I guess I want to ask ... We hear so much now about the breakdown in our civil discourse, and how folks who are getting their information from the New York Times aren't talking to folks who are getting their information from Fox News or Breitbart or whatever. I guess I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, and what you see either your role or the Times' role in kind of restoring this mythic civic dialogue we're all hoping for.

Zoe Greenberg

Yes. I do think, to some extent, it's a mythic, civic dialogue. But, you know, I do think that it's true that people get their information from different places and there's not necessarily a lot of overlap in how people are understanding the news or what pieces they're reading. I do think that this year, especially, has been interesting to see how some stories have kind of transcended that. I think the reporting on Harvey Weinstein and then how that really affects tons of different industries and really people from all over the country.

You know, different classes, different races, different professions, and actually had real world impact in that way is a good example of how the media can investigate stories that matter to people and affect people across the political spectrum.

Bryan Schwartzman

Tell me if I'm wrong, obviously the #MeToo movement that that reporting kind of spurred is very social media, very kind of now, but the way that story was reported to the extent I understand as an outsider, was very old school. Just tracking down people who ... And trying to convince them that it was in the public good to talk to something that was either embarrassing or that they didn't want to talk about, I mean that was my take on it. I don't know if you got more on the inside.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I think that's right. Emily Steel who was one of the reporters who wrote about Bill O'Reilly and ended up uncovering that he had settled with woman for millions of dollars over sexual harassment. The story she tells is she was trying to talk to a source to go on the record about the harassment and the source said, "I can't talk tomorrow, I have a Pilates class in the morning," and Emily said, "Okay, well I'll come to the Pilates class."

And she flew across the country to LA and went to this Pilates class, showed up next to this woman and talked with her and convinced her to go on the record. So, it definitely is kind of old school, shoe leather reporting.

Rachael Burgess

Wow. That's incredible! You know the kind of lengths to be able to tell something so ... And, especially that story, something that's so important, I think there's a lot of thought that the reporter is the enemy that's going out and trying to dig up all this dirt and destroy lives. But you think about how much good happened out of those stories and out of that reporting, and how it was told, that really great things that happened.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah! Going along with that, I think that kind of ties in with the decline of local journalism, and it's pretty sad, and I heard Lydia Polgreen who used to be at the New York Times and now she's the editor of HuffPost, talk about this. But, basically, the idea that people used to know their local reporters because they were just in their communities and they saw that these people were not these elitist people on high, they were just kind of local people who had the best interest of their neighbors at heart and what kind of ...

You know, uncover corruption in city council, or on the school board or whatever, and were really kind of "of the people" and it's really sad that a lot of those local news organizations have gone away or don't have a lot of money. Now it's people who are in New York or in DC who are writing these stories and it feels less like its kind of "of the people", but of course there are still great local reporters who are doing very good work.

Bryan Schwartzman

Right, and I think Patch was supposed to hyper-localize reporting, and to the extent I followed it, it didn't really take, right?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I mean, in New York we had DNAinfo and the Gothamist which were both really good, but they were just shuttered by their billionaire owner. Though I think Gothamist is coming back as WNYC which is the public radio.

Bryan Schwartzman

Zoe, I know you're not a movie critic, but we've seen this ... I guess the times, not the New York Times, but our times, have brought about a rejuvenation of the journalism movie genre. I just happened to watch The Post over the weekend, and I was a little let down by it. I was wondering, do you have a favorite journalism movie, is there one that inspired you or not so much ...

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I was let down by The Post too! I just thought it was sort of too cinematic and it didn't seem all of that, I don't know, that accurate or that moving. But then I recently watched Spotlight and I do love that movie.

Rachael Burgess

Such a good movie.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah. That makes investigative reporting look so cool and fun.

Rachael Burgess

So who are you hoping plays you in a movie some day? Once you uncover the big story and change the world? Because you're going to do that, it's destiny for you, who are you hoping plays you in an Oscar movie?

Zoe Greenberg

Oh, wow. I think we might be too far off to even consider, you know?

Rachael Burgess

These are important things to think about.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I'll keep that in mind.

Bryan Schwartzman

Interesting, though. Michael Keaton who was in Spotlight, he was in The Paper from '93, or '94, which is really overlooked. It's sort of a day in the life of a fake New York Post.

Zoe Greenberg

Oh, really? I've never seen that.

Bryan Schwartzman

Yeah, I think it came and went. But I thought there were some great newsroom scenes in there if folks out there haven't seen it. I know Rachael was really curious about this. When we first met, and you were a student at one of the ... Was it the Germantown Friends [school] or... I forget where you went.

Zoe Greenberg

Springside.

Bryan Schwartzman

Springside, right in Chestnut Hill in Philadelphia. You were really interested at a pretty young age in issues of race and class. I mean, has that carried through in your journalism career? Is that something that you're still thinking about and grappling with?

Rachael Burgess

We should also back up a little bit.

Bryan Schwartzman

Back up?

Rachael Burgess

Because we should also remind our viewers, also, that Zoe won an award for a documentary she did on race and class when you were 15. Which, when I said earlier that you're going to do amazing things, I mean, you're already doing amazing things! It's only up from here for you, it's destiny that you're going to be changing the world.

Zoe Greenberg

Well thank you, this is a great interview to have early in the morning. Help me out for the day.

Bryan Schwartzman

Yeah, I'm assuming you're in your 20s now, otherwise it'd be way too long ago that I interviewed you.

Zoe Greenberg

Yes, I'm 26.

Bryan Schwartzman

Oh, wow. Is that still part of your reporting to the extent you can make it? I mean they're very, obviously complicated, fraught issues.

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, it definitely is. I think what I'm really drawn to stories, reporting stories, especially about women on kind of [the] margins of society in various ways, and some of the struggles or obstacles they face in the systems in place that make it hard for them to succeed. So, I've written a lot about women's health care in prison, and I wrote a piece for the Times about how pads and tampons in New York state prisons were being used, basically, as bargaining chips and kind of being withheld from woman, in order to make it feel like a scarce commodity.

I interviewed one woman who was arrested and she was taken to a police holding cell and they told her that ... She had her period when she asked for a pad, and they told her that they would give her a pad, but they needed to call an ambulance because they didn't have any onsite. So they called an ambulance and got a sterile gauze pad, which was the only thing they gave her then. I mean, that's one example, but I'm working on a story right now which hasn't come out yet. But is about women leaving domestic violence in New York who are trying to get divorced, and they're basically just trapped, both financially and legally, in these abusive marriages. I think I'm genuinely interested in that type of story.

Sometimes it broadens out, so that I also wrote a piece about dental care and how people in poverty basically are getting sick from their teeth, having no dental care. It seems like this kind of marginal issue but it actually really affects people and makes them unable to go to work, and unable to eat, and have really low self-esteem, and various other health problems. So I think that does kind of effect all of my reporting, that lens.

Rachael Burgess

How are you able to report on all of these ... I mean, as you were telling me these stories, my heart is just sinking. How are you able to report on these things, these very emotional things, and being able to keep calm and keep that journalistic objectiveness. Or can you?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of it is being able to tell a story in a way that will affect a reader and maybe affect someone who can actually make a policy change. So I kind of keep that in mind as I'm reporting it, to feel like, ultimately I hope this is going to help these people and potentially effect change. I like working at a place that is known for its objectiveness and it's very credible because of that, so people are not inserting their opinions into reporting and they're very focused on how to make it the most bulletproof in terms of fact and in terms of the reporting and storytelling as possible. because I think that makes a story much stronger and able to reach a bigger audience.

Bryan Schwartzman

Did the Jewish identity you grew up with or that you still maintain, has it shaped your interests or approach to journalism?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, I think it has! I'm very interested in stories about ritual and questions of community and faith, I kind of like writing stories about people who are rethinking things or maybe modernizing, but kind of are deeply rooted in tradition. I wrote a story that I published, I think last summer, that was about Jewish families that are rethinking circumcision, or creating new rituals around circumcision where they're not actually doing a cutting, but they're doing something else. That was such a fun piece to report and write, because I kind of delved into this world that I've grown up in and it was just very interesting to talk to a lot of people about it.

Rachael Burgess

You also come in with another background, because your mother's a rabbi?

Zoe Greenberg

Yes.

Rachael Burgess

So what does that do to the way ...

Zoe Greenberg

She's a Reconstructionist rabbi.

Rachael Burgess

A Reconstructionist rabbi? On top of that! So what does that do, how do you think that impacts the way you seek stories and how you write your pieces?

Zoe Greenberg

Well sometimes I'll ask her. I mean, for that circumcision piece I just said, "Do you know people who are doing this, or who would want to talk to me?" I was kind of doing some resourcing through her.

Rachael Burgess

She's a good resource!

Bryan Schwartzman

This is Julie Greenberg of congregation Leyv Ha-Ir, right? in Philadelphia?

Zoe Greenberg

Yes. That's right. Yeah, it's funny because I was working on ... Nick was writing a column about women clergy which is how we reconnected, but I was kind of reaching out to various seminaries and rabbinical colleges to see what percentage of people in your classes are women now, and that was another instance of kind of sourcing through my mom or through the Jewish communities. Cause I knew who to talk to at RRC or they pointed me in the right direction, it was great.

Bryan Schwartzman

I think any of us could come up with an imagination what it's like to grow up ... The child of a rabbi, I mean, is Judaism just there all the time? Or is it just normal? What is it like growing up ...

Rachael Burgess

Well normal for her is normal, but.

Bryan Schwartzman

Right, I know, right. Normal for each of us is normal, but how would you describe it for somebody who didn't grow up in that kind of setting?

Zoe Greenberg

It was pretty fun. I went to a lot of weddings that she did, as a child. Yeah, we just had Judaism kind of as part of our life and we were very much part of a Jewish community that we would celebrate with and go to services with. And just live our lives alongside which was a really nice part of it, but I don't know if that's really specific to being a rabbi. We'd go to services sometimes that she led, or we'd go to a wedding she was officiating, and that was kind of the fun part.

Rachael Burgess

Speaking of these fun things about going to weddings, my partner's family has a funeral home. So I hear about all the funerals and stuff that they did, and you don't hear about weddings so much.

Zoe Greenberg

Oh yeah? That's really funny.

Rachael Burgess

That sounds so pleasant! These weddings. But what does that do, you're also a young person, and we're also talking about how do we engage the young adults and get them engaged in Judaism, and you are still pretty engaged in the Jewish community and you're very much identify as Jewish. Does your background being a child of a rabbi influence that? Or is there something else that's driving you to still stay connected?

Zoe Greenberg

I mean, for me, it's been sometimes hard to be connected when I'm away from home because I'm so used to ... Well, because I think my mom is a great rabbi, you know, I'm a little bit biased.

Bryan Schwartzman

You're allowed.

Zoe Greenberg

And I feel very connected to the kind of type of Judaism that I grew up with and was around. It's Reconstructionist but it's also some Renewal, so it's a little bit, I don't want to say on the fringes, but it is a little bit on the fringes. It's not as mainstream, and I found that kind of hard to find other communities that are like that. So its sometimes been a little bit disheartening, because I'll go to a synagogue and I'm like, "This is not what I'm looking for at all!" But I do think that's also just the nature of looking for a synagogue, you just always feel like it's not exactly what you want.

But, yeah, so that's been hard but in another way it's ... I know that there is a community that I do like, so that's kind of like just trying to figure out how I can have that or recreate that myself.

Bryan Schwartzman

I think it's fair to say that you grew up in something of a nontraditional family structure, are you able to talk about that at all and maybe tease out a little bit how that shaped you?

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, so I grew up with a single mom and she was a single mom by choice and we had donor dads, and then my two younger siblings are adopted. So, we kind of had a family that she created, and exactly how she wanted to do it. Yeah, I think it's kind of an example of what seems cutting edge at the time then becomes more mainstream and it becomes more widely accepted. It was so funny because my mom came to the Times and I was showing her around, and it turned out that day that one of her friends was on the front page of the Times, another rabbi, for being part of this Jewish and Muslim interfaith coalition, and it was kind of an amazing example of ... These have been her friends for a really long time, and obviously they kind of had this really activist Jewish community, and then coming to see that, look, it's on the front page of the national newspaper, basically!

It's sort of like, the time has come! I just sort of feel that way about my family too. You know, I grew up and it was more alternative, and now I feel like it's more common.

Bryan Schwartzman

Do you and your siblings have different levels of involvement and engagement with Judaism and your Jewish identity or you all kind of have similar takes?

Zoe Greenberg

We definitely have different levels of involvement. I mean, I don't think any of my siblings are super involved in Judaism but I think we all identify as Jewish in various ways. That might change when we start having kids, or are more settled, because right now we're kind of in our 20s. My older sister just turned 30, so it's still kind of a moment of settling down and figuring out what's important.

Rachael Burgess

I have to give such props to your mom because we're meeting you and all of the wonderful things that you've done, even as a teenager, and look at what you're doing now! And also to be a leader of a community, that's really difficult and that takes a lot of energy and that takes a lot of love. It sounds like your mom just had plenty to give. And that's wonderful.

Zoe Greenberg

It's true, she's pretty amazing.

Bryan Schwartzman

Yeah, anyone whose ever had a conversation with me for more than 30 seconds knows I have two daughters, seven and four, and they take everything I've got, and I've got a full partner in raising them. So I don't know, five seems daunting.

Zoe Greenberg

Cats! Cats is where we're at, right?

Bryan Schwartzman

Okay.

Rachael Burgess

That's what I'm doing, I'm just collecting cats at the moment. I'm young enough to do that where I can just collect and they don't need to be potty trained.

Bryan Schwartzman

I was wondering, what do you think folks that you know are looking for out of Jewish experiences. Assuming -- if they are looking for something?

Zoe Greenberg

I think it is tricky because it's a kind of fine balance, I've found out that I want to be part of a community that feels very relevant and engaged politically, but is not hollow of tradition. And I think that's kind of a tricky aspect of it, because I found that some of the stuff in New York or in Brooklyn where I live, it's like, "Come! Do this, have this Shabbat dinner," but it seems totally, completely removed from anything Jewish sort of, except that they're trying to get young Jews.

Though, on the other hand, I don't want to go to this staid old synagogue where nothing feels too relevant and everything is just how it was done 200 years ago, or something. So, I think that's the balance. I mean, I'm interested in ritual and community and ways to make ritual be a way to go through the seasons and go through your life. That would be exciting to me. And then also just being really engaged politically. So I know some of the synagogues here, and I know in Philly too, are involved in immigrant rights stuff, providing sanctuary to immigrants, I think that's really important.

Also, around the topic of Israel and I'm always kind of ... That's obviously also a tricky topic for synagogues to contend with, with millennials, because I think, for me, I don't want to be part of a synagogue that's just completely pro-Israel and has no room for dissent. I want a community that's engaged and kind of able to actually think about those issues and act on them.

Bryan Schwartzman

Where do you hope your career kind of goes from here, you know? What box do you want to check off next?

Zoe Greenberg

Well I'd like to move in[to] reporting and writing full time, I think that would be really exciting and really fun. It's a bit tricky to do in this media landscape, so we'll see how that goes, but that's kind of my longterm dream.

Bryan Schwartzman

All right, well we're going to wish you the best of luck, and it's really cool that we reconnected and...

Zoe Greenberg

Yeah, thanks so much.

Bryan Schwartzman

Hopefully, as I've said, our podcast has a long life and we'll get to repeat guests and we can talk to you after you've broken some huge stories.

Rachael Burgess

And you can decide who's going to play you in a movie that's going to win an Oscar.

Zoe Greenberg

Can't wait, thanks so much!

Rachael Burgess

Thank you.

Bryan Schwartzman

Okay, thank you.

Rachael Burgess

Thank you for listening, so please make sure that you subscribe. We're on iTunes, Google Play, Overcast, Castro, any place where you can get a podcast, we are there! And make sure that you tell your friends about us, and give us a great rating and a review to help people find our show. If you have any questions, comments, ideas for episodes and guests, please send us a message on our website at TrendingJewish.Fireside.FM and if you like what we're doing, you like the work of reconstructing Judaism, you like our podcast, please help support the work that we do!

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Bryan Schwartzman

Lithitra'ot! ...